Climate Clock Podcast Ep 5 | As AQI levels rise, here's how to make cities breatheable

In this episode of the Climate Clock Podcast, Sonal Bhutra engages in a conversation with Madhav Pai, CEO of World Resources Institute (WRI) India. Against the backdrop of rising air pollution, flash floods, and undeniable climate change, the discussion delves into the critical question of how cities can be transformed for sustainability. Madhav Pai, a seasoned practitioner in the field of climate change, energy transition, and urban infrastructure, shares insights on combating pollution, building resilient urban spaces, and the long-term strategies needed for a sustainable future. Tune in to gain valuable perspectives on the intersection of climate action, urban planning, and community engagement.

Sonal Bhutra: Polluted air, high AQI levels, and flash floods. This is all that we've been talking about in the last couple of months. There's no denying the fact that climate change is here. But can we surely fight it? How can we bring and build sustainable cities? And how can we reduce pollution and fight for our right to clean air? We have just the expert with us in the podcast today, Mr. Madhav Pai, who's the CEO of WRI (World Resources Institute) India. Joining us today, he's a thinker practitioner who's been working for decades in the climate change field, focusing on energy transition, cloud, sustainable development, and urban infrastructure. Madhav Pai, thank you so much for joining us here on the Climate Clock podcast, where we discuss everything about sustainability and climate change.

The first question, of course, that all of us have been talking about, especially closer to winters in Delhi and Mumbai, is how AQI levels in these cities come into focus due to the big impact. But what really causes it during winters, especially in Mumbai? We've been seeing it happening in just the last two years. Is there no cure to it? And if there is, is it a long-term cure that we have? Thanks.

Madhav Pai: Thanks for inviting me to this conversation. We only talk about it in winters when air pollution is a constant problem. The spike in Mumbai during these months is due to geological, meteorological, and topological conditions. Right after the monsoon, certain things happen to pressure, etc., that trap air pollution in and around Mumbai. We see these elevated numbers; it's not that we are at 50 or less than 50. All around the year, we are around 100. So, I think one problem like air pollution or even climate needs a slightly long-term perspective in addressing it. You can't only try to deal with it when there is a big spike in November.

We need long-term means to set up institutions, processes, and procedures to tackle the sources of pollution systematically. Tackling the sources of pollution, and I'm not just talking about Mumbai, involves systematically addressing issues at construction sites. Construction is a big source; we have to manage construction sites better. It's not only the builders; it's also our government, the Metro contractors, and all of that. It's possible to do it right. For example, a truck enters a site every day, and ideally, its tires should be washed every time it leaves the site to avoid spreading dust. We need to adopt clean construction practices and manage our construction sites better. This is an example of how we have to solve the problem source by source. One of the things we're trying to do with BMC (Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation) this year is to create a platform to produce better products, technologies, and equipment for construction site management.

Sonal Bhutra: Okay. So, the biggest source right now in Mumbai itself is construction, and for Delhi, we talk about stubble burning. Stubble burning happens in a month, but where does it go? Delhi has done well in the last five years, systematically establishing institutions and taking measures like relocating power plants. However, Mumbai needs a similar systematic effort across industries in the MMR (Mumbai Metropolitan Region). They are all supposed to use natural gas for their industrial processes, but due to high natural gas prices, they are using other fuel sources. We also have power plants, refineries, and chemical factories inside the city that may need relocation. As a city, we have to think about these relocations. What I'm saying is, we need a long-term plan, an air shed level institution, working source by source. In 10 years, we'll clean up, but it's not too late to begin.

Sonal Bhutra: So, you are in conversation with BMC, as you just told me. Are they taking those measures after the UN cry that we've seen? There is a recent advisory; they've asked private builders to stop construction for a bit. As you said, no short-term measures. Are they looking at long-term measures?

Madhav Pai: Of course, they have been trying to set up Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) for construction sites since last year, interacting with associations like Credai and Redco. They have a framework now on what these construction sites should do. They have done the first turn, and in subsequent years, they need to become much stricter in enforcing and levying fines. That's something they haven't reached yet, but it needs to be done in subsequent years.

Sonal Bhutra: People discuss among themselves, saying that we have the right to clean air, but when we are not getting it because of ongoing construction, what can they do about it? Can they complain, and is there a remedy available for that?

Madhav Pai: I think it's important to raise the issue. Even compared to last year, this year, the air pollution conversation in Mumbai is bigger. It's essential for citizens to be aware, raise the issue, and build pressure. However, some of these challenges won't be resolved overnight. It's important to raise the issue constructively and also take measures individually. Are you using public transport? Are you using an electric vehicle? Are you ensuring that trash is not being burned? Everyone needs to contribute, and there are measures we can take at various levels, from individual to community to government.

Sonal Bhutra: The last question on Mumbai: How do Mumbaiites travel? We have a split here in terms of numbers.

Madhav Pai: Mumbai is a public transport city. Out of 100 people in Mumbai, 55 walk. If you consider everyone who works in households, they all come on foot or by train. Among the remaining 45%, half take the train, 10-12% take the bus, 5-6% use cars, and another 5-6% use taxis and rickshaws. Mumbai is blessed with public transport, and we are building another 330 kilometers of public transport. The challenge is improving the working environment, but space is limited. Choices need to be made; for example, on-street parking needs to be reduced, and it should become more expensive.

Sonal Bhutra: We've been facing a lot of issues due to the lack of public transportation in Mumbai. Metro is being constructed, but currently, the metro construction itself is causing traffic. People are stuck in traffic for an hour. Is this temporary?

Madhav Pai: I think the benefit of the metro will come in 5-6 years. The construction will cause disruptions, but the long-term benefits are huge. The government needs to communicate this better. The pain will be for 5-6 years, but the benefit will be for the next 50 years. It's about patience and planning for the future.

Sonal Bhutra: We talk about Mumbai and Delhi because the majority of us live there. What about other cities in India? We know that there, it's the vehicles, unlike in Mumbai where the problem is construction.

Madhav Pai: In other cities, vehicles are the primary source. In Mumbai, we are fortunate that we have a small share of vehicles in the overall transportation mix. In other cities, it's the reverse. The solution there is transitioning to electric vehicles and improving public transport. Cities need to plan for high-density public transport corridors. The issue is not cars; the problem is the space they occupy. Public transport has a higher capacity for the space they use. So, when you transition to public transport or electric vehicles, you can solve the problem of air pollution.

Sonal Bhutra: People are trying to transition to electric vehicles. But there's a lot of cost associated with it. When it comes to a person's pocket, it becomes difficult. What can be done to make it feasible for everyone?

Madhav Pai: There are two things. One, for public transport, the government has to invest more in electric buses and improve the quality of the bus service. For personal vehicles, the government has to provide incentives for electric vehicles. This can be in the form of subsidies, reducing taxes, or providing infrastructure like charging stations. The cost will come down as technology evolves and demand increases. The challenge is to bridge this gap between now and when electric vehicles become affordable for everyone.

Sonal Bhutra: Talking about sustainability and climate change, one of the things we always hear is the 2-degree target. We're moving towards that, but what if we don't achieve it? What if we fail, and how does it affect us?

Madhav Pai: The 2-degree target is an agreed-upon global target. If we exceed that, the impact will be severe in terms of extreme weather events, rising sea levels, and disruptions in agriculture. It's not a hard and fast rule; the impact doesn't suddenly double at 2.1 degrees. It's a gradual increase in risk. We are already seeing significant impacts at the current 1-degree increase. It's not just about temperature; it's about the impact on ecosystems, water availability, and food security. Even if we exceed 2 degrees, every half-degree matters. The closer we get to 2 degrees, the more severe the impacts. That's why there is a global consensus to keep it well below 2 degrees.

Sonal Bhutra: How do we work towards achieving this target?

Madhav Pai: There are multiple steps. One is to reduce our emissions significantly. The other is to adapt to the changes that are already happening. For example, even if we stop emitting today, we will see some level of climate change. So, we need to adapt our cities, agriculture, and infrastructure to the changes that are inevitable. It's a combination of mitigation and adaptation. The third thing is international cooperation. Climate change is a global problem, and individual countries can't solve it alone. There needs to be global cooperation and finance to support developing countries in dealing with climate change.

Sonal Bhutra: Talking about cooperation, we've seen the COP26 summit. How effective do you think it was?

Madhav Pai: It's a step forward. I wouldn't say it's the end-all, be-all solution, but it's a step in the right direction. The fact that countries are coming together and making commitments is positive. However, there's still a long way to go. The commitments made at COP26 need to be implemented, and there needs to be accountability. It's a positive step, but the real test will be in the coming years when countries have to deliver on their commitments.

Sonal Bhutra: What role can individuals play in this? We often feel that as individuals, our contribution is very small.

Madhav Pai: Every individual's contribution matters. It's not just about what you do as an individual; it's also about influencing your community, your workplace, and creating a demand for sustainability. Individuals have a role in demanding change from governments and businesses. Every small action, whether it's reducing your carbon footprint, using public transport, or influencing others, matters. The collective impact of individual actions is significant.

Sonal Bhutra: We talked about air pollution, climate change, and sustainability. What do you think the future holds for us?

Madhav Pai: The future depends on the choices we make today. If we take the right steps in terms of reducing emissions, adapting to climate change, and working together as a global community, we can create a sustainable future. If we continue with business as usual, the future looks challenging. It's a critical decade; the choices we make in the next 10 years will determine the trajectory of the planet for the next several decades. It's in our hands to make the right choices and create a sustainable and resilient future.

Sonal Bhutra: Thank you, Mr. Pai, for joining us today. It was a pleasure talking to you and getting insights into how we can contribute individually and collectively towards a sustainable future.