10th SBI Banking Conclave | JSW Steel sets sights on 50 million tonne capacity by 2030

And that is one of the reasons why we all took all the precautions and ensured that the balance sheet stays protected, and strong. Also, the government of India came out with a very, very practical policy in terms of ECLGs which actually ensured that employment should not be affected. And also at the same time, the bankers should have the courage to lend in such situations. And we have seen when all that is behind us, the kind of assets that got built around the same time, the delinquencies were much lower, and we had a reasonable buffer available within the balance sheets to address the challenges.

I think I would attribute it to the fact that the government policies were quite glued to what was happening on the ground. And even the regulator was also very mindful of the ground realities. And that has helped the banking system to build the resilience in the most difficult times. And actually going by that only, I would say that in this calendar year, we have seen a huge meltdown in the US when it comes to the banking system. And it was essentially nothing but the interest rate risk that has got reflected in the US banking system. But over here in India, we sit insulated, so that further gave us the confidence that yes, we are into a strong territory and we are we are practicing sound policies. So I think this is something that augurs well in terms of how should we navigate the challenges that might really erupt on the global landscape.

One of course is the fact that the Indian economy to a greater extent is insulated from global threats. Almost about 85% of our GDP is domestic. And there's a huge domestic demand thanks to demography, thanks to the GDP growth which we are seeing. So demand is quite

strong and we don't have the supply side challenges. And that is something which you have seen in terms of the inflation and the way RB has acted throughout the year. We stopped increasing interest rates much before the global central banks stopped increasing their interest rates.

Khara: I think we are on the right trajectory because inflation is much within control. But we are very clearly aiming for just about 4% inflation. However, I expect that maybe somewhere in the middle of the next calendar year we should get to see the reduction in interest rates.

Khara: We always believe that we have to offer a fair deal to our depositors also. We don't want to compromise their interest. As far as the deposit is concerned, it has a franchise value. As we are more than 200 years old, we have to take care of our depositors too. So that is the reason why we have done some calibration in terms of interest rates.

Khara: I don't think so. The decision should be taken by banks depending upon their individual positions. We had some elbow room available, so that's the reason why we have done this.

Chauhan: If you look back for the entire year, I think Nifty has returned almost 18%, still three days to go. There are other indexes which have returned 23-40%. And small-cap nifty has returned 60%. So if you see why it has happened, it is also interesting. But if you look back previous year viz-a-viz this year, the interest rates were going up because inflation across the world had gone up because of the wars and supply chain disruptions and all. And that's where basically, the year began and somehow the FPIs were pulling the money out.

A few times I have said that this is the year where the circumstances did not take over Indian activities. Earlier, whenever the oil prices went up, we used to be in trouble. Interest rates abroad would go up, we would have FPIs taking money and markets would tank. This is the first time we didn't see that happening, Indian investors were sort of investing an increasingly larger amount every month. And that's why the Nifty and every other index kept on staying there. And then towards the end of the year, when the US started decreasing interest rates, and of course, there is a potential that it might go further down, that's why all the FPIs are back.

There was also a China factor that China was going to slow down, which it did, and what its impact would be on the rest of the world. But I think we have been slightly insulated from the world.

On the other side, like today, you would have also seen another interesting statistics of India's current account deficit coming down to almost point 1%. Why this happened is because our services and remittances have now gone much more than our imports of oil, electronics and gold which were three things we could not have stopped. Once you start going up on the export chain, there is nothing stopping you. That's how I see this. Finally, we are reaching a place where we are actually preparing for a takeoff.

Chauhan: I don't know whether you have invited my regulator, but I wish.

Singh: I think we have already heard in a lot of things that how the economy's doing and in the power sector, we always call that our frequency of the grid is the pulse of the economy.

Singh: What we are making is that we are making it as stable as per the consumption. And you rightly said that we have recorded almost double-digit kind of growth, both in terms of the peak as well as in terms of energy. And I can assure you that as the demand goes up again, rather than keep going up, we will make sure that the power supply is available. And it is affordable also along with that. So reliable power and affordable power is one of the main objectives. And I think we all know now that in the last few years, only transition was being talked about but in the last two years, the energy security is paramount, and then only the transition can happen. So we have to use the resources, whatever we are having, but then we will have to go towards transition as fast as possible as far as sustainable.

Let me clarify one thing here, take the opportunity to send the message. It's not a problem to have the coal-based plants, but how much utilization - that is how the emissions and the climate are really dependent on. So while we will require the energy, and a lot of capacity to meet our peak requirement, at the same time when we are going for the large capacity of the renewables, the PLF will start coming down. I think that's what it is and we are working on all the fronts whether it is coal-based what you rightly said but more aggressively on the solar, wind, and going forward for the new age fuels like the green hydrogen, chemicals, and so on.

So there has been work going on on how we can take advantage of the circular economy and capture the carbon dioxide and utilize the green hydrogen and make the green methanol, which is far better than importing the hydrocarbons from outside. So it's a way of going towards self-sufficiency.

Singh: I think Dr. Joshi was very bang on and he was very right that the corporate has to really follow. I think he's in the role of making policy and enabling environment and we all have to really make sure that it is being done and implemented on the ground. As far as NTPC is concerned, our capex has been in the range of around Rs 25,000 crore. Going forward it is going to increase and it is going to increase at least by 30-40%. And we have stated the objective that by 2030, we will be adding - on the renewable side - 60 gigawatts, so today, we have 3.5 gigawatts, which is commissioned, and 7.5 gigawatts is under construction. So it's almost every month some capacity is getting commissioned, and another around 20 gigawatts, which is in the different forms of the kind of developmental activities, so we have no doubt that by 2030, we will be able to achieve 60 gigawatts rather than before that. And we know that one megawatt is somewhere between Rs 4 crore and Rs 5 crore. So I think the math is very simple in that case.

Acharya: So I think, India being the fastest economy, we are seeing a very strong growth momentum in India. And this will continue for about two decades. We call it the nation-building phase of the country. And during this time, structurally, steel will be required. Usually steel demand accelerates at a faster pace - during this period - 1.5-2 times of the GDP. So in the last two years, if you look at the demand, the steel demand has grown by 13%, the previous year, and this year, it's growing at close to 15%.

If India wants to be self-reliant in terms of steel, we need to add capacities just to make sure that we don't import steel.

We, therefore, at JSW Steel are building capacities. Currently, our capacity is about 28 million tonne in India and 30 million tonne globally, we plan to take our capacities up to about 50 million tonne before the end of this decade.

We see a strong momentum maybe not 15%, but a 10% double-digit 8-10% growth is something which is easily possible. And this would call for an additional capex in excess of ₹100,000 crore.

Acharya: So I think India is lucky to be as Khara rightly said, we are lucky to be a domestic dependent economy. So we see also about I think, typically 10 to 15% is the exports from India, if you look at direct steel, but where the opportunity lies, I think India is going first of all, as a country, let's put it this way that India's current capacity is about 170 million tonne as we speak today, our aim is to get to 300 million tonne of capacity and the production would be in the range of 250 million, which is double of what it is today. The majority of this would be consumed in the domestic market.

As we grow, I would say in the next seven years, as you said, I would see more exports of engineering goods out of India and less export of direct steel. So if I were to see the ratio between India and China, we export about 1/10 engineering goods versus China. Now with this opportunity opening, post, the China plus one, kind of preference, I think India has a huge opportunity for growth as well.

Satsangi: So probably when I was looking at the panel, I thought, I am the only odd man out from the tech side. When Dr. Josh Joshi was giving his keynote, I was wondering because he was talking of all tech, how tech is going to help and probably I think all of us should be proud Indians, how technology is shaping and one of the fundamental things that India has done and achieved because of this growth what we are seeing is embedded because of the technology transformation.

And I must say that one of the reasons why we are seeing such strong robust growth while all the parameters are right, and there are a lot of things the government has done, right in terms of the policy in terms of the infrastructure development, road, transportation, and all, but one thing which is stood very differently from the other market is that digital adoption. The way the government, the enterprises, and the MSME, have adopted digital transformation has really shaped the future of this country.

Today morning, I was just going through some of the data, whether you look at the Aadhaar UIDAI or some of the smart tech, and ONDC and all, I was amazed because we managed much of this critical infrastructure. One thing that I wanted to highlight is the Aadhaar, with 1.3 billion Aadhaar this thing in six months, the Aadhaar authenticated 53 billion transactions, just imagine that's the power of digital adoption, which is helping to fuel the growth of the economy and all. Surely, the honorable Prime Minister’s vision about Aatma Nirbhar Bharat and PLI is really fueling this growth further kind of thing.

You rightly mentioned the way we are seeing the PLI adoption, the tech industry is going to be the most beneficiary with PLI 1.0 and PLI 2.0. But more importantly, this time, the government is listening to the industry based on PLI 1.0. There was a certain cap and PLI 2.0 when they wanted to launch they have taken that input from the industry on what exactly is required so that we can put it upfront.

Probably we feel that PLI 2.0 is going to be reshaping the entire Indian economy, not only for Indian consumption but for export-oriented growth. So what we heard from JSW or NTPC Chairman, probably we are going to be seeing the same thing in the IT and technology side.

Satsangi: The first thing I wanted to correct this quarter, we have become bigger than even the US in terms of the headcount. So today now, for HPE, India is the largest in terms of manpower. Also, when you last time you interviewed our global CEO, Antonio Neri, he committed a $500 million investment and we are on track. One of the key reasons for this investment was that we wanted to bring the technology to the country. We heard that today, we are living in the AI world and the AI age is starting from India with our recent honorable Prime Minister hosting the Global Partnership Summit, which was attended by almost 29 countries. And that's where it is fueling the growth kind of thing.

We feel that India is going to be the home for newer technology to come. While it has got both sides kinds of things and we also see how organisations and countries and governments are looking that it has to be ethical AI, that AI adoption is to be done, but certainly AI is going to be transforming and bring the next level of growth in the country.

Bhoumik: I think, a few things that we have been seeing for the last couple of years, we've all been amazed at the resilience that Indian corporates have shown through this significant headwind that have been faced. And even as we were seeing significant upgrades to the ratings and people were a bit skeptical about that I think a lot of that has actually born out. I think what we continue to watch is the way Indian corporates are taking advantage of the opportunities. Mr. Acharya talked about engineering opportunities, and we're actually seeing that in capital goods. As Indian entities have, I think order backlogs up to the next four years, supplying transformers and other equipments for renewable capacities in the US. There are opportunities on the consumer side, not a staple part but on the aspirational products where people want to upgrade themselves. Infrastructure, of course, would continue to cement steel power, is seeing a major transformation.

I think this is indeed a good time. From a rating agency perspective, I suppose one of the things we would see from a policy and we have very alert regulators, one of the things we will continue to like to see is balance sheets continue to be buffered up through counter-cyclical strength, so that whenever a downturn comes, or if an idiosyncratic event were to hit either through cyber frauds or governance issues, entities are better prepared. So we would like to see those buffers being even more strengthened.

Bhoumik: I don't have a sort of a ringside position on that, because I don't sit in on the rating committees, I'm sure rating agencies are listening to this long and hard. And I think the criteria that they adopt is transparent and is well-explained. But I think the bigger point is if you look at the articulation that rating agencies are making at this point, I think it's become a lot more balanced, a lot more benign now. People understand the benefits that growth is bringing in. And all they want to see is the narrow limited point of the balance sheet of the government, whether that is going to adhere to a declared path, and whether that path is going to be sustained, and confirmed.

Chauhan: Interestingly, this year, the raising of funds was around 10%, lower than the previous years, largely because interest rates went up across and many companies did not raise funds for the first half broadly, this first calendar half now slowly they are coming back to the market, you can see that euphoria so in some ways today when we stand and look back, the year looks great because you're looking at like 18% returns on the large-cap and 60% on the small-cap. But in a way, when the year started it did not look that good.

In terms of India's capital markets story, I think, from 1992 onwards, the liberalisation story, 1994 is when NSE started working. And since then, Indian markets have been thought leaders and execution leaders across the world, not only in how we process transactions. We were the first successful automated markets in the world after that, the US, Europe, Japan, and wherever you can think of became automated after us in 1994. NSE was pretty much the first public digital infrastructure of India. India's even IT progress I still remember Som Satsangi coming to me those days also and so India, IT progress came out of NSE. Literally, NSE was the first experiment of public digital infrastructure, which went from villages to towns, and that's where India kind of developed all that usage.

But having said that, today in terms of corporate governance, despite whatever controversies that have been created, we are pretty much the top five markets in corporate governance, there is no similar market. Why I am telling you this is

despite all our growth, recent times or past, we are still at $2,700 probably already, although it's low-frequency data so we are already $3,000 $3100 per capita income today. But there is no market at that number at $2,500- $3,000 per capita, that is so vibrant. We are now the fourth largest market in terms of market capitalisation in the world with like $4.25 trillion market cap after the US, China, and Japan although Bloomberg and everyone wants us to believe that Hong Kong is a separate country, it stopped being a separate country belong back right. But somehow, agencies have a tendency to give you all that stuff right so effectively $4.25 trillion of the market is basically an individual sitting in Jorhat or Dibrugarh or Srinagar investing their hard-earned ₹1,000 in the company working out of Salem. She's never going to visit that company, but she has complete confidence that our money will be not wasted and when the profit comes, it'll be given to her that portion of that profit.

For me, that concept of capitalism spread across that participatory trust into unknown people investing, and unknown people like what I call India has become a very trustful nation in the last 30 years since NSE advent began. NSE when it started, it was ₹4 lakh crore market capital total India, today how many companies with more than ₹4 lakh crore market cap today India's market cap in rupee terms is now ₹3.5 crore crore more than 85 times in 30 years. Those are the numbers, 8.35 crore investors. In fact, just to give you another stuff today, another interesting statistics. Now UP has become larger in terms of a number of investors compared to Gujarat. So, first is Maharashtra of course, with 1.5 crore, so UP is now calling shots in many areas, but also in stock markets and so you can see the demographics are changing.

I was in Uttarakhand a few days back and I was checking out the number of investors coming from there. And it is the same proportion as the average Indian proportion in the stock markets, I could not have imagined that Uttarakhand has actually started participating. Why I am telling you this, India's public is now trusting India's entrepreneurs whoever is telling you whatever. Please don't believe that people are putting their money, hard-earned money into India's entrepreneurs. And I think that is the story of the last 30 years. That will be the story for the next 50 years.

Bhoumik: I think our near-term view is that liquidity conditions will now start improving partly elections, partly JP Morgan and other factors. So from a liquidity perspective, the supply would become more available and so therefore we become a less constrained economy in terms of these resources being available to us. At the next level, I think we become more integrated in terms of disclosure requirements and governance expectations with the rest of the world in terms of disclosures and periodicity. So I think that's the next level of and obviously our top 1,000 companies are already adhering to that, I think it would now start sinking in into a larger base. And so, therefore, the pyramid sort of elevates itself base upwards.

Khara: Well, one, of course, we have to support the growth initiative and this has not being talked about the private sector investment. So if I may say, from this forum, we have got a very clear visibility in terms of the fresh proposals coming in. What we have actually seen is that the private corporates, they had a lot of cash sitting in their balance sheet. First and foremost, the investment happened by deploying that cash. And now they have come to a stage where they've understood the growth opportunity, which is there and we are very much there to support their initiative so that the private capex should now take off this is what our first priority is.

Khara: That is what I'm saying until now, we have seen that the investment has happened from the internal resources, as Mr. Gurdeep Singh also said that there is a huge gap lined up for the next financial year. Similarly, I would say that many other public sector entities have also lined up the capex for the next financial year. The way I look at it is that it is going to be a blend of both the public sector government and the private sector, but we will get to see more private sector investment also coming from the banking system as well. So that is one priority and second, of course, digital is something which has been one of the very forefront for all of us and we have invested well in terms of upscaling ourselves as far as the digital capabilities are concerned.

All said and done, cyber risk is one area, which all of us need to really guard against be it banking or non-banking entities, any entity because today, there is a huge dependence when it comes to the operations of any entity on the information system. So we have to guard against that that is another very important priority for us. And I think the other area where we all need to work on is how to make the organization digital-driven organization in terms of leveraging analytics. So that is one of the other very core focus areas for us to understand the customer better, and offer them the products, which they are all looking for.

Khara: Thanks to digital, today, we are a bank of our size, we have almost 88% of our transactions are digital and 98% of the transactions are happening outside the branch. But if somebody asked me whether we don't need somebody with 22,400 branches, my answer is no. Because of that kind of diverse customer base whom we serve we have to have a physical presence and let me share with you that when it comes to the financial sector or unless and until there is a physical location of an office in the far-flung area, the ability of a brand to get the confidence of the customer is rather very difficult. So I think from that point of afterall, since we deal in a fiduciary capacity, we deal with the customer’s money, our presence on the ground, makes a whole lot of difference.

And also, having said that, I must also mention that the country needs a lot to invest in terms of financial literacy. From that point of view, the public sector banks have done a great job all this while. But if you ask me whether we have completed that, I think still there is room for improving that financial literacy. So I think to that extent, we will have a coexistence of digital as well as physical. So that's a Phygital is going to be a reality for us, for all the banking system.

Having said that, I must also mention that when it comes to what you mentioned, what will really engage us for the next five years, to my mind, there are many repetitive jobs that are being done at a bank. So I think the Gen AI is going to be the next big talk.

Khara: We have already started working on it so that is something we actually started working with analytics in a big way. Now we are moving towards the Gen AI so I think in the next five years, we will probably see that unfolding. And probably it will help us in addressing the customers needs and also well probably shape up the way banks will be run in the days to come. So many of the repetitive jobs, we will have probably will get to see the distributed ledger very much in adoption going forward. We'll get to see Gen AI getting implemented in the banking system and we will get to see the data-driven organisation as far as the banks are concerned. So this will actually show up in terms of our ability to manage risk, the ability to understand risk, the ability to understand the customer's behavior and also figure out the exceptions in no time. So which will also address part of the risk which are there in that digital even that will also be addressed in this whole course.

Khara: The way fintechs are grouped, they offer a solution to a problem in particular, and also they are nimble footed. So, for entities like us, we have to marry the size with the agility and that can perhaps come if at all we collaborate with such fintechs and we consume their solutions, we pose problems to them and seek the solutions, and I think that is going to be the model. It has already started happening, it will further get standard in the days to come. And also, I would also like to mention that, we as banks, we have to ensure that the whole ecosystem is secure, which also means that the partners in the network also are equally secure as we are.

We cannot afford to have any kind of laxity on the part of any of the ecosystem partners. So this also means that it is the responsibility of a senior partner in this whole job to ensure that there is adoption of the of the security standards, which will actually keep the old system secure.

Khara: M&A, that's why I said that M&A if at all we do, then they become part of our entity. As I was saying we need nimble solutions and nimble solutions will be possible if they stay where they are. But having said that, I must also mention that we at State Bank of India, when we are now embarking upon Yono 2.0, we've got the garage system, we are probably as nimbler as probably any other Fintech is.

Chauhan: I wanted to make a point, he made it later on saying they are the fintech, right, literally SBI has converted itself into a fintech. And I think kudos to the top management and also middle management for doing what they have done to a bank, which is like 200 years old. So for me, I have not seen many such transformations in the world, this is a top-of-the-line. And what they do with their applications across India is phenomenal.

Khara: I must also answer that I have said it on various earlier forms. Well, Yono is a part of our distribution channel, how can you ask me to spin off a distribution channel? I cannot spin off branches, I cannot spin off my Yono, which is my distribution channel. So, it has to be part of us only, but we will keep on investing into it, we will ensure that it remains ahead of the curve. It should be better than many others. And that is what our effort and endeavor is.

Singh: I think that is the right conclusion, and why we should not monetise that. So maybe I think down the line in the next one to two years, as we add up the capacity and further, there is a pipeline of growth and further utilising not only as the energy but I think the once the storage starts become the reality means becoming the affordable storage solutions, this green energy, will be having much more scope and maybe I think down the line about let us say about a decade or two decades, I think this may be even or taking many other companies itself, and we would be definitely looking forward. And that's our thinking process, which is nothing new and a secret in that, that maybe I think down the line about a year or two we will be going to be listing this arm anyway.

Singh: We are going to start with a very, very small percentage, which is I think, whatever the mandatory is, because as you know as of now, we are not constrained with the kind of raising capital, I think Khara is there, we can always bank on, But at the same time, I think they need to increase the shareholder's value and maybe giving participation to the larger public. Once we go public, I think there will be also the owners of the company and they should feel proud that they own the shares in the green company.

Acharya: So, today, India is the second largest producer and consumer of steel. I think for the foreseeable future, I see that India is going to consume a lot of steel, therefore, all of us are focusing on terms of creation of capacities in India. Having said that, I think what

would happen over time is that downstream capacities can be set up in the consuming markets worldwide. And those the basic steel gets produced in India and then consumption point to create downstream capacities and then add value there and supply to the customer just in time. That's a possibility, which could come over time.

Acharya: It could be a combination of M&A or a greenfield site as well.

Acharya: No, nothing at this point in time.

Bhoumik: I think the story has already begun and so therefore, I talked about aspirational purchases Ashish talked about real GDP on a PPP basis, India's already crossed $8,000. So these are in some way cusp points and it probably crossed $10,000, in maybe three or four years and these are cusp points. When these cusp points get crossed people's aspirations move away from basics into more upgrades of life and then they expect as well, better public facilities and better environmental products. And so therefore, I would think that India's focus would continue to be to be focused, more and more on value add, and a less of a primary supplier to the rest of the world and more as a value-added supplier. We are clearly globally competitive as far as the services sector is concerned. We talked about how now the GCC is are contributing majorly to CAD uplift.

We hope that with all the incentives of the governments, we will start seeing that in some of the manufacturing sectors as well. We already have world-class manufacturing in pharma, and then some of the auto-ancillaries are probably world-class. And we'll probably start seeing that in others and so therefore, just to sort of summarise this, I think what it means for all of us is continued focus upon being the best in the world, and setting those standards for ourselves so that we are as competitive as any other competitor. And I think both from a governance as well as from a cost standpoint those are, what our benchmarks are. I think that digitisation is going to just help us, pass on those benefits to the to the customer.

Satsangi: So before I answer this question, let me just add one point, which  Khara mentioned, in terms of SBI, adopting the latest technology. I have been personally associated with SBI from 2000 then onward on the technology side, and 2001 was when SBI decided to move from ALPM to core banking. That was the first bank in the history of India, which decided with such a huge investment, they have done it. But more importantly, SBI was always ahead of in terms of the technology curve.

When our honorable Prime Minister launched the Jan Dhan scheme, that was the time the chairman asked me Som this particular infrastructure, we wanted to take it to a 2 billion account holder. And nobody in the world has ever thought that the single core banking infrastructure can scale or you require infrastructure, which can scale up to 2 billion accountholders. We worked it out and today, let me share with you as Vi quotes, banking infrastructure is the world's largest infrastructure, so always they have been ahead. And I know their transformation journey and it is ultimate class, which probably many of the global banks have not adopted.

Satsangi: So coming back to PLI I think one of the disruptions that PLI is going to be bringing is on the semiconductor industry, while we all understand that semiconductor is the backbone of any technology, and IT adoption, is starting from your IoT devices to hand devices or to any largest data center. And that was the one place where probably India has not done well. While on technology adoption, India was always ahead, software technology development, we were all ahead. But semiconductor is something which we are behind. And if this PLI goes the way the government is trying to drive, in the next couple of years India is going to be the strongest base for semiconductor technology, starting from R&D, to development to manufacturing are those things, and most of the tech company are taking advantage. This is one of the reasons why I am saying that this quarter India has become number one in terms of manpower deployment globally because we have moved a large number of resources in the core tech side on the core development in R&D and from the various parts of the globe to India. We are seeing the same trend happening in the semiconductor industry and technology side.

Over a period of time, we feel that this is going to really fuel the growth for the next 10 years, the way we are saying, and as per the word estimate, and IMF has already made the estimation by 2026-2027, India is going to be the third largest economy, a global economy. We feel that this PLI scheme specifically in the dark side, and in the semiconductor is going to be fueling that.

Chauhan. Just to basically buttress the point that three years back, if you read any newspaper coming out of London or the US, or magazine, like Financial Times, or Economist or New York Times, it was about how China's supply chain is out of this world, it is like no country can achieve it in next 500 years type of thing. The supply chain is ultimate, and India is clearly way below and in two years’ time, and is basically for iPhone manufacturing that iPhone, how Apple has kind of fine-tuned everything just in time and in China that no other country can actually do that kind of high tech stuff. And in two years’ time, we are manufacturing pin 10% of iPhones and I was like wondering, is it PLI or is it Indians or is it all together and for me, that is the story of manufacturing, that basically you are fed stories, which were basically PR in the guise of editorials which was to keep a setting that we can't do it. Now that whatever you call it Atmanirbhar Bharat, or PLI, finally proof of the pudding is in the eating that you are doing iPhone manufacturing increasingly, every day, 8 to 10% has already been for me that is the way I say that India has broken that.

Chauhan: But the fact is that it was being projected as if it cannot be done in India at all. And suddenly you are doing 8-10%.

Khara: Two things when it comes to the IBC code, I would say that it has gone through the evolutionary phase. There are not many countries in the history of all these geographies, where the insolvency code has stabilised to this extent in such a duration. The other important aspect that cannot be ignored, is the fact that IBC code has created the ecosystem for resolution IBC code also has brought in discipline among the corporates. It's more a fiction that the control of an interface can be lost, it's a reality. So, I think these are some of the intangible gains, which perhaps cannot be ignored.

Having said that, I also mentioned that there is a continuous effort to evolve this code. There is a continuous effort in terms of bringing in that discipline for all the professionals who are involved in this and if at all, there are any sharper practices, they are very closely reviewed by the IBBI and the necessary remediation is also initiated.

The second question relating to NARCL, NARCL again, all said and done, it operates an ecosystem where some of the sharper practices of the legal system are still prevalent. And those are essentially in terms of the sharper practices adopted by various players who deal with the legal system. So, I think with the passage of time, NARCL is also efficient in cutting on those kinds of time delays and we have started seeing traction the other fact remains that there is a movement of accounts from the banks to the NARCL and there are always issues relating to valuation. Sure. So these are the kinds of things which take some time. Having said that, though it was a late start, things have started moving